I just received this comment below which may help clarify your situation. If you want to pursue points for WEc1, you must include all the fixtures that your occupants are expected to use, even if they are outside of your tenant spaceTenant space is the area within the LEED project boundary. For more information on what can and must be in the LEED project boundary see the Minimum Program Requirements (MPRs) and LEED 2009 MPR Supplemental Guidance. Note: tenant space is the same as project space.. For our project, we are using showers located in a lower level, outside our CI boundary, to show compliance with SSc3.2. Hope this helps.

GBCI Review Comment 4/30/13: "Please revise the form to include the FTEFull-time equivalent (FTE) represents a regular building occupant who spends 8 hours a day (40 hours a week) in the project building. Part-time or overtime occupants have FTE values based on their hours per day divided by 8 (or hours per week divided by 40). Transient Occupants can be reported as either daily totals or as part of the FTE. Residential occupancy should be estimated based on the number and size of units. Core and Shell projects should refer to the default occupancy table in the Reference Guide appendix. All occupant assumptions must be consistent across all credits in all categories. shower uses and provide a plumbing fixture schedule that includes all fixtures utilized by the LEED-CI occupants (both inside and outside of the LEED-CI Project Boundary). If the project has elects to exclude the fixtures located outside of the LEED-CI Project Boundary from the calculations, then the project is ineligible for this credit."

I was hoping to see a response to this question. We have a similar situation where the template is rounding our water closet flush valve from 1.28 gpf to 1.3 gpf. That small rounding adds an additional 10kGal+ to our annual water use and is costing us points. Curious if anyone has attempted submitting there own spreadsheet with narrative, and been successful?

Thanks for the bump William! I too am still wondering...We are planning to submit our own spreadsheet and narrative, but it'd sure be nice to know if anyone else has had success.

Derek, do the squat toilets work similarly to a regular toilet? If so, I would treat them the way you would another toilet.

Hi Padraic,

If the daycare and office project occupants have similar usage patterns and utilize the same fixtures, one fixture usage group may be used to represent the entire building occupancy. The form will automatically calculate the daily usage rates for each fixture based on the percent male/female as entered in the Fixture Group when the group is assigned to each fixture.

Fixture groups are meant to define occupant groups (i.e. office, warehouse, retail, etc.) that either use a different subset of flow and flush fixtures and/or have different usage patterns.

Hi Nena,

If the bathroom would be used by the tenant (which would be the assumed case unless you have evidence otherwise), then yes it must be included within WEc1.

Note that you do not need to include the toilet as part of WEp1.

You do not need to include the toilet as part of WEp1

I don't think you can exclude them. A separate fixture group is the way to go, but you cannot base it on an assumption of the number of employees that are handicapped unless there is some way to prohibit non-handicapped people from using them. (Some people who are not handicapped prefer using these toilets for various reasons, while others do not, so they will likely get used just as any other toilet in the project.)
I think the best you can do is take the total number of toilets in the project (by gender) and assign a percentage to the separate fixture group for the number of handicapped toilets divided by the total number of toilets. (Ex. 10 toilets total, 2 of which are handicapped accessible. Therefore 2/10 = 20% of building users use that fixture.)

Marco and Michelle,

In tough cases like this I use Fixture Counts. WCs and URs are both counted. A unisex restrooms, typically how handicap restrooms are used, could be used by anyone.

You add up al WCs + URs to determine the total count.

For females add WCs only.

The above are your denominators.

Count the number of WCs and URs at flow rate and that becomes your numerator to determine the percentage of access.

In the end you have several percentages of different fixtures which you can use to determine occupancy access, or fixture groups. You'll end up with a very reasonable water usage values.

Trying to split up usage by estimating occupants who have access only works where can define a hardline on who uses what: such as a prison, or schools with student versus teacher restrooms.

The tricky part is taking a reasonable Fixture Count analysis and trying to make it fit in the LEED tool. The USGBC should provide a tool that automatically does the percentage use determination using Fixture Counts but I don't believe they will every do so.

I have being the Fixture Count option for many years and have not a problem with the reviewers accepting it. I don't know if they understand what Fixture Counts are because they have never bother to challenge me on it.

If the shower is outside of your project scope it does not need to be included in water calculations. I would suggest contacting GBCI/your review team and certainly include a detailed narrative in your next submission.

Matthew, 

Did you withdraw the SSc3.2 credit? If not, this may be the issue. See the last section of the Bird's Eye View above.

Mathew,
We have a similar situation, the reviewer told us to include the showers in the calculations. We provided a narrative explaining that the showers were not part of the project scope and the credit got denied. Can you share what did you do in your case?
Thank you.

Hi Bianca,

For our space, the showers are located in a private business within the building. There is a cost to us to be able to access the showers. We have since submitted an appeal for the credit indicating that the space is no longer pursuing an agreement with the private business to access the showers and thus should not be considered within the project space.

If the showers are located in the building common space, this arguement would not apply though.

The 'Water Use Reduction Additonal Guidence' updated November 1, 2011, v4 provides a calculation example. They used 1.6 for the full flush and 1.1 for the low flush which provided a weighted average 1.35gpm.

Yes

John, good question, but I don't have any idea. The answer probably lies with the WE TAGLEED Technical Advisory Group (TAG): Subcommittees that consist of industry experts who assist in developing credit interpretations and technical improvements to the LEED system., years ago. Anyone know?

We had a similar issue ; we entered in data into all the required fields; the prerequisite template said we were a "N", however the WEc1 credit said we acieved all 11 points, with one point reserved for innovation(!) ....How is that possible?
......We clicked the 'Feedback' tool, and left a message; what happened is that sometimes the credit submittal templates don't work correctly. They basically reset the forms; then the Prereq said "Y". ........
I would do the same if I were you. Good luck!

Kathy, we are having the same problem! Did you ever figure out how to get your points to change from 6 to 11? Our calculations are showing that we have well over a 40% reduction, but yet the credit is only showing that we earned 6 points! What do we do?

Lynne,

Assuming you're using the most up-to-dat version of the form, you need to make sure that under Credit Information you have selected the number of points you're attempting. If that doesn't help I would give GBCI a call and they will look at it while on the phone with you.

Sajeev, if you wish to take credit for these toilets under WEc1, you need to include them here.

The Reference Guide for LEED NC/CS/Schools has a table in the appendix for LEED core & Shell projects, which can help determine the number of guests.

Julian, I don't know for sure since this is very uncommon, but I expected seawater would be allowed for this credit.

The response to a CIRCredit Interpretation Ruling. Used by design team members experiencing difficulties in the application of a LEED prerequisite or credit to a project. Typically, difficulties arise when specific issues are not directly addressed by LEED information/guide issued recently for a project in Hong Kong suggested it was possible for sea water flushing to contribute to the water use credit. This is logical as it is non-potable waterPotable water meets or exceeds EPA's drinking water quality standards and is approved for human consumption by the state or local authorities having jurisdiction; it may be supplied from wells or municipal water systems..
However, in a recent submission for a CI project the project team asked whether seawater from a municipal seawater supply system can be used to claim credit for WEp1 and WEc1. The response: No, per LEED InterpretationLEED Interpretations are official answers to technical inquiries about implementing LEED on a project. They help people understand how their projects can meet LEED requirements and provide clarity on existing options. LEED Interpretations are to be used by any project certifying under an applicable rating system. All project teams are required to adhere to all LEED Interpretations posted before their registration date. This also applies to other addenda. Adherence to rulings posted after a project registers is optional, but strongly encouraged. LEED Interpretations are published in a searchable database at usgbc.org. 1551, municipally provided greywater (in this case seawater) cannot be used to meet credit requirements.
ID 1551 is dated 2006: Municipally reclaimed water is not applicable to WEc3 achievement (NC Version 2.0). This credit focuses on fixture efficiency and on-site water reuse.
There seems to be a mismatch between the response to the CIR and ID1551, else the CIR response would have been 'negative'!
The logic is that if I choose a building near public transport it is energy efficient, so I get points. Surely, if I choose a building using seawater flushing, which is potable water efficiency, I should get an advantage too?

Only toilets and lavatories that are dedicated for the use of one person are considered private. Large open offices and toilets dedicated for the use by one company are public because more than one person will use the fixture.

Thank You Susan.

Garrison, sorry for the slow response here, but I think your question should be clarified by the Water Use Reduction additional guidance doc from USGBC.

Sandra, I've been thinking this over and I don't think it's likely you could get this exception. LEED 2009 does have a higher standard, and projects are expected to go through extra efforts to meet it.

You could try asking GBCI about this, and if you do, please let us know how it goes, but I don't see that this would work.

Susan, have you looked at earning points under SSc1? I think this is the correct approach here.

Yes, but I don't think it applies to us. In 'Implementation' for Path 10, it says this credit is only for projects that are less than 50% of the total square footage. We're over 75% of the building.

The real question is: If the base building implements a rainwater harvesting system and reduces the building's municipally supplied water use, can we use it in our reduction calculation as well or are we limited to simply calculating flow rates of fixtures our occupants will be using?

Susan, given that rainwater is listed as a potential technology for achieving this credit in the credit language and that you are over 75% of the building, I think this should work.

Patricia, this doesn't show all the uploads, but check out the sample forms download you can get in the Documentation Toolkit above.

The answer to your question is that you do need cut sheets for fixtures and fittings.

Tristan,

Thanks for the help. I did click on the Doc toolkit and I don't see any documents. It might be because I have a free membership.

In any case, yes, I know that I definitely need cutsheets for new fixtures and fittings but my question was .... how about for the old fixtures and fittings. That's what I was unsure about.

Thanks again and I hope you have a wonderful day!
Patricia

Yes, sorry if that wasn't clear. The content in the Doc Toolkit is downloadable by members. I'd recommend trying a monthly membership—you can quit anytime.

Leslie, in most cases LEED-CI credits are designed to be more specify and not overlapping with NC-type requirements. For example, WEp1 only applies to fixtures in the tenant scope. Also, EAp2 requirements are very different for CI. With things like bike storage you do need to make sure you're not double-counting something that another CI project may be counting.

I hope this answers your question. More specfiic questions may come up, and be best addressed, the specific CI credit pages and forums.

For this credit you only take into account the specific fixtures such as lavatory sinks and toilets shown in the credit language (see the credit language tab above).

Kitchen sinks are included in the credit language, so does this mean that all the sinks within a commercial kitchen are included in credit caculations?

Sinks in the commercial kitchen area used to prepare and prep food for others should be considered process waterProcess water is used for industrial processes and building systems such as cooling towers, boilers, and chillers. It can also refer to water used in operational processes, such as dishwashing, clothes washing, and ice making. and not included here. Sinks used by you for preparing and prepping your lunch is domestic water and are included here.

Thanks for the speedy reply Susan.

Sounds like a commercial situation, as I'm assuming everyone on the floor has access to it. Doesn't seem very much like a hotel room, no?

I meant more by the private setting and fixtures involved. Thanks for the clarification.

Correct, you only need to include fixtures within the tenant scope of work, plus showers if they are being relied upon under SSc3.

Tristan, where can I find this requirement regarding shower, again? Is it from your project experience or can you direct me some reference or literature I can go by? It makes sense for total water usage point of view, but what frustrates me is that I can’t find reference/literature to go for. Are we supposed to read between lines and keep guessing about credit requirements or depend upon other project experience? Thanks,

Seonhee, I'm sorry, but I can't recall where I've seen this documented. I have heard it directly from GBCI for projects, though, so I would trust it. In general, I think you can trust what you find in the Reference Guides and addenda, however, there are some small things like this to look out for. That's one thing this forum is good for.

Seonhee: were you ever able to locate the documentation? I'm looking for a historical lis of all the revisions/addendas affecting this credit. Thanks.

Metered faucets can be used on a project pursuing this credit, but the LEED baseline for faucets is so stringent it will be tough to contribute much to the credit threshold in this way. Using toilets, urinals, and showers to earn the credit will be more important, as well as possible water reuse.

See additional guideline information from USGBC - It seems the baseline .25 gal per cycle can apparently be reduced in design case to 0.1 if you use .5 gpm @ 12 second cycle (the average cycle time for autocontrol faucetsAutocontrol faucets have automatic fixture sensors or metering controls.). This was adequate on my project to reduce beyond the 40% reduction, thereby eliminating the need for a $90,000 rainwater harvesting system to achieve 11 points.

http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=6493