Hi Alejandro,
We have had this happen several times. Yes, you need to define an additional fixture usage group for the unisex rooms because the male usage will be increased to 3x per day in those rooms. And yes you need to assign some bodies to that new usage group.

How you do so depends on your situation and the case you can make. It could be just visitors would work if the design and proximity of the rooms suggests that staff would not use them. I would be inclinded to assume that including a few FTEs would be a good idea. Is there a percentage that is specific to reception perhaps who like visitors just might use these?

I think I figured it out! lol I didn't enter the days of operation. That would be noted by the architect correct? this is a LEED CI so the PIF3 form would show that? It hasn't been registered yet, we are still trying to work out possible points.

Hi Kasandra,
It's good to hear that you are using the sample forms to run some preliminary calculations prior to registering the project. Yes, once the project is registered in LEED Online the annual days of operation will be listed in PIf3 and will link to the WEp1 form.

Note that the fixture groups are meant to define occupant groups (i.e. office, warehouse, retail, etc.) within the building that use a specific subset of flow and flush fixtures. If your project occupants have similar usage patterns, one fixture usage group may be used to represent the entire tenant occupancy and the form will automatically calculate the daily usage rates for each fixture based on the percent male/female as entered in the Fixture Group form table when the group is assigned to each fixture.

Hope helpful!

Thank you! It is an office with FTEFull-time equivalent (FTE) represents a regular building occupant who spends 8 hours a day (40 hours a week) in the project building. Part-time or overtime occupants have FTE values based on their hours per day divided by 8 (or hours per week divided by 40). Transient Occupants can be reported as either daily totals or as part of the FTE. Residential occupancy should be estimated based on the number and size of units. Core and Shell projects should refer to the default occupancy table in the Reference Guide appendix. All occupant assumptions must be consistent across all credits in all categories. and Transients so I was going to do a group for each. The forms are so helpful.

Unless the FTEFull-time equivalent (FTE) represents a regular building occupant who spends 8 hours a day (40 hours a week) in the project building. Part-time or overtime occupants have FTE values based on their hours per day divided by 8 (or hours per week divided by 40). Transient Occupants can be reported as either daily totals or as part of the FTE. Residential occupancy should be estimated based on the number and size of units. Core and Shell projects should refer to the default occupancy table in the Reference Guide appendix. All occupant assumptions must be consistent across all credits in all categories. and transients use different fixtures (with different flow/flush rates) then no need to list a group for each...you can list one fixture group in the form table and it will automatically calculate the daily usage rates for these occupant types.

Well there are two sets of bathrooms. The FTEFull-time equivalent (FTE) represents a regular building occupant who spends 8 hours a day (40 hours a week) in the project building. Part-time or overtime occupants have FTE values based on their hours per day divided by 8 (or hours per week divided by 40). Transient Occupants can be reported as either daily totals or as part of the FTE. Residential occupancy should be estimated based on the number and size of units. Core and Shell projects should refer to the default occupancy table in the Reference Guide appendix. All occupant assumptions must be consistent across all credits in all categories. have showers in their bathroom. Otherwise all the fixture types will be the same. So mayby just make a group of the FTE and showers?

You can identify one group if the FTEFull-time equivalent (FTE) represents a regular building occupant who spends 8 hours a day (40 hours a week) in the project building. Part-time or overtime occupants have FTE values based on their hours per day divided by 8 (or hours per week divided by 40). Transient Occupants can be reported as either daily totals or as part of the FTE. Residential occupancy should be estimated based on the number and size of units. Core and Shell projects should refer to the default occupancy table in the Reference Guide appendix. All occupant assumptions must be consistent across all credits in all categories. and transients have access to the same fixture types between these two bathrooms...the form will automatically calculate the correct daily uses for the FTE and transient numbers you list for this group (e.g. it will calculate the daily uses for the FTE shower use, and excludes transient shower usage). :)

The showers are in the bathroom in the back office area where the transients use the front bathrooms. It is a government office building with waiting area. So the visitors don't really have access to the shower I would say.

Yep, the form takes this into account - that transients do not utilize the showers (per the LEED default daily usage rates outlined in the LEED Reference Guide).

oh wow. So you just simplified this for me quite a bit. Thank you! this forum is so helpful. It is my first project to work on so I have alot to learn. Thank you for all your help.

glad to help! you can take the time listing out each of these groups, but there's really no need in your project case, so I was hoping to save you some time.

If your front restroom had different flush/flow fixture rates from the back restroom, and the transients only had access to the front restroom, then this scenario would require you to list different fixture groups to accurately account for this... hope this helps clarify.

Hi Sharon,

Kitchen faucets to be used for break room sinks must be included, but commercial kitchen sinks and bar sinks including pot sinks, prep sinks, wash down, and cleaning sinks are considered process waterProcess water is used for industrial processes and building systems such as cooling towers, boilers, and chillers. It can also refer to water used in operational processes, such as dishwashing, clothes washing, and ice making. and are not included (November 1, 2011 Addenda).

However, pre-rise spay valves must be considered. If your project is registered after November 1, 2011 – the pre-rinse spray valve flow rate must be 1.6 gpm or less in order to comply with the prerequisite. If your project has a pre-rinse spray valve that has a higher flow rate than 1.6 gpm, then the project is not in compliance and the pre-rinse spray valve would need to be revised in order to be eligible for LEED certification.

Hope helpful!

Hi Sharon and Carlie.

Do hand washing sinks within commercial kitchen (cafeterias) need to be included in the WE calculation?

Thanks,
Jaclyn

We'd like to know the answer to this one also. Per Addendum, all hand washing sinks regardless of location need to be included. However, there are some arguments in the NC pages for not including them based on usage differences.

Hand washing sinks located in commercial kitchen areas that do not pass through a grease interceptor should be included in the water use calculations under the kitchen sink category (November 1, 2011 Addenda)

Public and private lavatory faucets encompass all sinks used primarily for hand-washing regardless of location (February 2, 2011 Addenda)

Thanks Carlie!

Hi Vivien,

Note that if the LEED-CI project has replaced any existing fixtures within the base building restrooms then the project has expanded the LEED-CI scope of work in regards to the prerequisite and all fixtures within those restrooms (both new and existing) must be included in the calculations of the prerequisite as the restroom is now viewed to be included within the LEED-CI project scope of work.

Since the tenant is occupying the whole building, I assume that the project occupants have similar usage patterns and utilize the same fixtures; therefore, one fixture usage group may be used to represent the entire building occupancy. The form will automatically calculate the daily usage rates for each fixture based on the percent male/female as entered in the Fixture Group when the group is assigned to each fixture.

Your approach to calculating the gym fixture use seems reasonable and I would definitely include a narrative describing your rationale. In this case, you will need to create additional usage groups for the “gym occupants” and “restaurant occupants.”

Hi Diana,
No, typically the plumbing fixture schedule is found on the plans. You can just upload that plansheet. We tend to use product cutsheets, since schedules can vary in terms of the information provided. Reviewers tend to prefer the fixture schedule for some reason. Either should work, but if you use cutsheets you might provide a quick explanation as to why.

Thank you, Michelle. I think maybe we will upload the product data cutsheets.

Hi Diana,

The reviewer is requesting the plumbing fixture schedule for the project as part of the required documentation to verify that the fixtures listed in the form were specified for the project.

A copy of the plumbing fixture schedule from the project's construction documents, outlining detailed information for each flush and flow fixture specified (including fixture manufacturer, model number and flow rate) helps the review team verify that those fixtures are part of the construction contract. In the absence of such documentation, a copy of project-specific specifications and details or a project-specific contractor’s submittal with manufacturer’s cut sheets highlighting flush and flow rates for each fixture specified can be provided.

Hope helpful!

Hi Kasandra,

Guidance on how to calculate the project occupancy (FTEs, visitors, etc) is outlined in the LEED Reference Guide for Green Interior Design and Construction, 2009 Edition. In addition to Full-Time EquivalentFull-time equivalent (FTE) represents a regular building occupant who spends 40 hours per week in the project building. Part-time or overtime occupants have FTE values based on their hours per week divided by 40. Multiple shifts are included or excluded depending on the intent and requirements of the credit. occupants, a value must be provided for transient occupants for both daily average and peak period transient occupants. For a typical office space, transients may include individuals, such as consultants or clients, who may visit the space over the course of the day (such as for meetings, etc.). Additionally, ensure that your occupancy numbers are reported consistently throughout all submittal documentation.

Wouldn't this be filled out on PIf3 when the project is registered? Or does the reference guide have a set guideline for an office? Is the reference guide available online?

Yes, occupancy is completed within the PIf3 Form; however the WEp1 form allows project teams to define "user groups" to reflect populations within the building that use a specific subset of flow and flush fixtures - within this form the occupancy can be entered incorrectly by the project team (and if it doesn't match the occupancy within PIf3 it will be questioned by the reviewer).

Reference Guides (hardcopy or electronic) are available for purchase via the USGBC website under 'Resources'.

Hope helpful!

Thank you that is very helpful. this is my first project to work on so it is overwhelming. I have a guide for the leed GA test and then a new construction major renovation from v2.2. The project hasn't registered yet so I am thinking leed online will have resources?

One more question. Is there a guide book that would be good to have on hand that covers multiple rating systems? Since I don't know for sure which this project is going for yet. Or is there one for each one?

Kasandra, there is a LEED Reference Guide for each rating system, which is a good idea to have. However, they are expensive so I wouldn't buy one unless you knew you were using that rating system.

Another idea is to subscribe to LEEDuser (this website) for $9.95/month, and get access to all of our credit-by-credit guidance for all the major rating systems.

Thank you for the response. This site is very useful.

what is the difference between the LEED for Commercial Interiors v2.0 Reference Guide and the LEED Reference Guide for Green Interior Design and Construction? I think the first is a study guide? One more question, my project for LEED CI would go for v2.0 or 2009, how do you pick one?

Hi Kasandra,
As Tristan noted, there are different rating systems for different project types. The rating systems also evolve over time. LEED-CI v2.0 is the old rating system. "Green Interior Design and Construction" is the 2009 version of the LEED-CI system. You do not have a choice in this case about which to register for. If you are newly registering a project, it will be a LEED 2009 project, i.e., the Green Interior Design reference guide.

The study guides are different.

Thank you, I thought that was the case but needed to make sure. Thank you for all your help.

Hi Sompoche,

LEED-CI projects without plumbing in their scope of work are exempt from WEp1.

Jonathan, is the fixture distinct from a lavatory sink or shower, etc.? If so, it wouldn't be covered. This prereq is pretty much confined to the named fixtures that are in its scope—I haven't heard or seen much "scope creep" into gray areas like this one.

It is a different fixture, located in a separated area of the restrooms. Thanks for the quick feedback!

MacKenzie, if you were doing LEED-EBOM certification, then improvement over a baseline might be more relevant. In a LEED-CI or LEED-NC project, the baseline is determined by the definitions provided in the credit language (see the tab above), not pre-existing conditions in the building.

LEED does not require you to install urinals at all nor does it say if you put them 'here' then you must put them 'there'. The water use design versus baseline cases must be the same and account for the same use for each type of fixture. Water savings is based on occupancy use and fixture efficiency and not on the number of fixtures. If you were to choose to install urinals in 50% of the male restrooms, then 50% of your male population would have access to urinals and you would build your baseline and design cases around that.

Hi Marco,
Susan is completely right, but please note that the calculations get a little more complex if you don't have urinals in every male restroom, and your water reduction will be majorly impacted. Given the baselines we are comparing to, low flow urinals at 0.125 gpm offer a big savings over the 1.0 gpm baseline. Likely much more so than a 1.28 gpm toilet or dual flush vs the 1.6 gpm baseline. Especially if half your males will be using the toilet all three uses instead of 1 use toilet and 2 uses urinal.

Adam, if they are in the tenant spaceTenant space is the area within the LEED project boundary. For more information on what can and must be in the LEED project boundary see the Minimum Program Requirements (MPRs) and LEED 2009 MPR Supplemental Guidance. Note: tenant space is the same as project space. then they must be included, per the credit language.

Hi Vincent,

I don’t know the details of your project scope (i.e. hospital vs. a clinic with exam rooms) but note that private lavatory use applies only to plumbing fixtures in residences, apartments, and dormitories; to private (non-public) bathrooms in transient lodgingLodging are facilities that provide overnight accommodations to customers or guests, including hotels, motels, inns and resorts. facilities (hotels and motels); and to private bathrooms within hospitals and nursing facilities.

If your exam rooms lavs meet the definition of private lavatory use, you will need covert the autocontrol/metered faucets from GPM to GPC and list this in the form calculations as (other) Metering in Table WEp1-4 Flow Fixture Data. Ensure that the design case calculations use the default 12-second duration when converting to GPC. Note that the duration column is not applicable in this case and therefore should not be modified (e.g. a 2.2 gpm fixture x 12 seconds = 0.44 gpc). Refer to the Water Use Additional Guidance document on the USGBC website (http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=6493) for additional information.

Hope helpful!

Michelle, have you tried including those outside fixtures and run into problems with the reviewer? I would agree with you that this separation is not ideal for documentation, and if you have no trouble with compliance, it would be preferable to include them. I would be surprised if GBCI objected. I would think the other approach is more just as an option if teams really need it for some reason.

Hi Michelle,

This rationale ensures that the fixtures within the LEED-CI project boundary/scope of work/tenant control at a minimum meet the 20% prerequisite.

Otherwise it is possible for a tenant to specify a kitchen sink (perhaps the only fixture in their scope of work/boundary) that is really inefficient and does not meet the 20% requirement; however, the project team could then capitalize on low-flow fixtures outside their scope (fixtures utilized by the tenants in the base building) and potentially meet a 30% threshold and earn points.

Hope this helps clarify.

Hi Tristan and Carlie,
I have been trying to follow guidance and credit form documentation requirements as literally as possible, because the reviewers tend to. It's frankly more of a hassle to go through all the review comments that follow from common sense that deviates from what checklist-oriented reviewers expect to see. Don't get me started on the current fervor for consistency among figures that simply aren't the same across different credits, whether it's FTEs, areas or dates. We are seeing dozens of comments along these lines. However, I guess I'm somewhat heartened Tristan that you would say that. I might try it on one of our projects just to see what happens.

And Carlie, I guess it never occured to me that anyone would pursue points on any basis while specifying something inefficient under their control.

In any event, thank you both for the response.

Chiming in - Carlie is definitely right.

Part of the confusion probably comes from the July 19, 2010 Addenda which created a distinction between which fixtures are applicable to WEp1 vs WEc1 in LEED-CI. That addenda changed which fixtures were applicable to which calculations and so therefore different calculations have to be provided for each.

In WEpc1, the addendum limits WEp1 to only the fixtures in the tenant's actual control. I believe the reasoning is that this allows any project to still be eligible for LEED-CI certification as they aren't negatively impacted by any poor-performing base building fixtures. Since the prerequisite is then only based on the fixtures in their control, theoretically any project could always make sure they met the minimum 20% reduction by being careful about which fixtures they chose and installed. As such, however, projects aren't allowed to claim savings in the prerequisite for any high-performing base building fixtures as those fixtures are not within the actual tenant scope and therefore those fixtures are no longer applicable to the prerequisite.

In WEc1, however, the addendum expanded it to all fixtures that the tenants will utilize - regardless of where those fixtures are located or who provides them or whether they're new or existing. This ensures that the points are awarded based on the actual efficiency and water savings of the project when looking at the holistic water use. For poor-performing base buildings, CI projects can still meet the prerequisite and pursue certification; they just might not earn any points. For high-performing base buildings, CI projects have the benefit of additional savings and points essentially as a "reward" for selecting that base building.

That's probably the simplest way I've seen the explaination for post-July 19, 2010 Addenda projects:

WEp1 --- only the stuff that is inside your LEED-CI Project Boundary (i.e. generally just the stuff you spec and install)

WEc1 --- anything that the tenant will use regardless of where it is and whether it's new or existing (this will include all fixtures in WEp1 plus any additional base building/other fixtures)

If you registered after that addenda, you could fully expect to receive review comments back in WEp1 if you happened to include those outside fixtures (as those fixtures just aren't applicable to WEp1 anymore per that addenda). I have seen it go both ways - sometimes reviewers will recalculate for you if they can award the prerequisite still or sometimes it being a standard issue to address before the Final when there are additional issues/can't be readily recalculated. Generally, if you try to stick to that basic breakdown of what belongs where, you'll have better luck avoiding any more of those long comments about the addenda/scope difference.

Best of luck!

Thanks Kristina, that's how I understand the addendum also. It just doesn't make sense to me (if you know you are pursuing both WEpr1 and WEcr1, i.e., Case 3) to create an artificial distinction in the documentation that shows two different outcomes. As we know, consistency is key and yet here we are forced to create two inconsistent water reduction documents for the same project.

On one of my projects, this means a WEpr1 with all fixtures except showers and a WEcr1 with all those same fixtures duplicated but with the showers added in. I found this to be tedious and a potential QC issue, but it does follow the "what belongs where" as you indicate. We'll see what happens. Thanks.

Hi Patti,
You definitely need the Additional Water Guidance document which has been recently updated and apparently has disappeared from Credit Resources and cannot be found. I have sent an email requesting a copy of this.

Sounds like the first review comment is questionable but the second one is accurate per the guidance we've seen and the approach we've taken.

The previous guidance indicates that the issue in this case is not whether the restrooms were upgraded or installed as part of your scope of work, as it is whether your FTEs will use fixtures in the building outside your LEED boundary/scope of work or not.

We have a fourth floor TI in which the tenants will use some restrooms in our scope and core restrooms outside our scope of work. Therefore, both sets of fixtures were included in the Prereq and WEcr1 (even though we didn't touch the core).

In your case, if your tenants are using your new fixtures and they are using core fixtures, but you don't want to claim water savings on the core fixtures, then you only include the fixtures in your scope of work for Prereq1 but can't claim WEcr1.

The only time the water fixtures are not included in Prereq1 is if your tenants use fixtures entirely outside of your scope of work/LEED boundary. If that's the case, you are exempt from the Prereq by special circumstances.

I have also just recieved the first response - that base building fixtures need to be excluded in WEp1- which leaves us in a tricky situation, given that within our project scope there is only one flow fixture with a saving of less than the required 20%. Patti - have you had success in simply reasoning that the credit approach is right in line with the scope of fixtures that will be used by tenants, whether base building or tenant fit out?

http://www.usgbc.org/ShowFile.aspx?DocumentID=6493
Link for the Updated (July 6, 2012) Water Use Reduction Additional Guidance. According to Appendix A from this document, your project (and the one i'm working for) looks like a Case 3 scenario, and therefore we should include both interior (inside the CI scope) and exterior (core) fixtures in WEp1 and WEc1 forms.

Michelle,

A different fixture group for unisex restroom users is no longer required. I suggest providing a narrative and/or supporting daily use calculations to explain the anticipated urinal usage. If a percentage of male occupants will not have access to or will not be expected to use restrooms with urinals, the default Total Daily Uses for water closets and urinals will need to be adjusted in the form accordingly, while ensuring that three daily fixture uses are still counted for each FTEFull-time equivalent (FTE) represents a regular building occupant who spends 8 hours a day (40 hours a week) in the project building. Part-time or overtime occupants have FTE values based on their hours per day divided by 8 (or hours per week divided by 40). Transient Occupants can be reported as either daily totals or as part of the FTE. Residential occupancy should be estimated based on the number and size of units. Core and Shell projects should refer to the default occupancy table in the Reference Guide appendix. All occupant assumptions must be consistent across all credits in all categories. occupant. The adjustments are left to your discretion based on your estimates for usage, but some adjustment should be made when a project has some unisex restrooms.

Hi Samantha,
Thanks for the response. Since my toilets are dual flush, I actually will have to do separate fixture groups because the weighted average calculation for the gpf is different when there is no urinal in the restroom. But then once I do that, I have to come up with some way to distribute users absent of any constraints or guidelines on who uses what. I agree that a detailed usage narrative is going to be the way to go. I'd just rather take an approach that is tried and true if one exists. Thanks.

1. I agree that in this case, only fixtures and fittings located within the tenant spaceTenant space is the area within the LEED project boundary. For more information on what can and must be in the LEED project boundary see the Minimum Program Requirements (MPRs) and LEED 2009 MPR Supplemental Guidance. Note: tenant space is the same as project space. meet the needs of the tenant space occupants, unless the employees are expected to use restrooms within the mall's common area.

2. No, LEED does not specify fixture/fitting quantity requirements.

3. LEED does not require that you include visitors/customers/transients in the water use calculations if it is reasonable to assume they won't use the restrooms within the project. In this case, since the project is located within a mall that has common restrooms, it is reasonable to assume customers won't normally use the tenant space restrooms. You could include some expected fixture usage (less than the LEED default values) for those customers that request to use the restrooms within the tenant space in the calculation, and include a narrative explanation. The WEc1 calculation includes fixtures both inside and outside the tenant space that are used to meet the needs of your tenant occupants. If your customers will use the fixtures inside your store, include those uses in the calculations for both WEp1 and WEc1. Otherwise, exclude customers from the calculations entirely. If your employees will also use the mall common area fixtures, include those uses in WEc1 only, since the WEp1 calculation does not include fixtures outside the tenant space.

Thank you Samantha for you explanation, though I am still in doubt with point 3 and accessibility. If customers and employees use the mall's toilets I can't achieve points under C1, this is fro CIv2009. I am eligible to comply with the PR, but not have extra points. I want the points, so in order to do this I have to install the toilets in my store and they need to be accesible for customers and employees. Would it be "reviewed" the fact that they are not accesible for people with difficulties if our local law allows us to put no toilets, ADA or not ADA? Would it be reviewable that an employee needs to accompany the customer to the toilets (for security reasons) Employees I'm sure are going to use them, but customers won't necessarily, although I'm counting 0.2 FTEFull-time equivalent (FTE) represents a regular building occupant who spends 8 hours a day (40 hours a week) in the project building. Part-time or overtime occupants have FTE values based on their hours per day divided by 8 (or hours per week divided by 40). Transient Occupants can be reported as either daily totals or as part of the FTE. Residential occupancy should be estimated based on the number and size of units. Core and Shell projects should refer to the default occupancy table in the Reference Guide appendix. All occupant assumptions must be consistent across all credits in all categories. for each customer. The question is, is it possible to put the toilets in a place that isn't as accesible? Thanks!

Do you mean that you cannot achieve points under WEc1 because the mall's common area fixtures are not efficient enough to achieve a 30% reduction when they're included in the WEc1 calculation? You are not required to install new fixtures within the tenant spaceTenant space is the area within the LEED project boundary. For more information on what can and must be in the LEED project boundary see the Minimum Program Requirements (MPRs) and LEED 2009 MPR Supplemental Guidance. Note: tenant space is the same as project space. or as part of the tenant scope to pursue WEc1. If the LEED-CI project does not include any fixtures within the LEED-CI Project Boundary or include the installation or modification of any applicable fixtures outside of the LEED-CI Project Boundary as part of the LEED-CI scope of work, the project would be exempt from the requirements of WEp1, and WEc1 would include all fixtures that the LEED-CI occupants have access to. LEED does not require adherence to ADA standards. Does this help?

Hi Samantha, The mall's toilets are not even near the 30% reduction. And it is not possible for us to change them. There are more than 2000 toilets!
That is why we are trying to go for Option 1, Tenant SpaceTenant space is the area within the LEED project boundary. For more information on what can and must be in the LEED project boundary see the Minimum Program Requirements (MPRs) and LEED 2009 MPR Supplemental Guidance. Note: tenant space is the same as project space. Fixtures Only: F&F located only within the tenant space meet the needs of the occupants. Tenant occupants will not use F&F located outside the tenant space) Is it ok to consider this valid?
Option 4 says that both inside and outside fixtures outside our tenant space meet the needs of the occupants, but our occupants are only our occupants when they are inside our store, so this is why we believe we are ok with option 1, but maybe I'm just trying to justify my decision...

I agree that customers are only your project occupants when they are inside your store, and you should not consider their usage of the mall's common area fixtures in the WEp1/WEc1 calculation. Further, if your project's employees will not use the mall's common area fixtures, then I agree that the Tenant SpaceTenant space is the area within the LEED project boundary. For more information on what can and must be in the LEED project boundary see the Minimum Program Requirements (MPRs) and LEED 2009 MPR Supplemental Guidance. Note: tenant space is the same as project space. Fixtures Only option is best suited to your project.